[Note: This article also appears at crosswalk.com]
In recent months I have been making a concerted effort to expose what has become a curse of the Internet—i.e., the Cult of Online Discernment Ministries, also known as ODMs (see my article Don’t Believe Everything You Read On the Internet and several additional linked assessments).
Others—including well-known blogger Tim Challies (Article #1 & Article #2), Pastor James MacDonald, and the Internet Monk—have raised similar concerns about these so-called watchbloggers. Most recently, we have the following short article by long-time journalist Dan Wooding, founder of ASSIST Ministries, who is not only “an award winning British journalist,” but a respected author of some 42 books, the latest of which is his autobiography, “From Tabloid to Truth.” Wooding observed the following in a May 12, 2009 article titled “The Wild Wild West of the Blogosphere: Is it ‘Love Central’ or ‘Hate Central?’”
In recent years, a new form of communication has appeared called blogging in which anyone can set up a blog (a contraction of the term weblog) and write about anything they wish. No journalistic training is required, but a point of view that can be either hateful or positive.
After being in journalism for 40 year now, I marvel at the variety of commentaries or entries, often without any real evidence, that are appearing all over the Blogosphere. For some who live in restricted countries, these bloggers literally risk their lives by writing about human rights abuses in their land. This is what I consider the good side of blogging.
But sadly, we also see many individuals, especially Christians, who use their blogs to attack other Christians with whom they disagree. These bloggers know no bounds in their hateful attacks and justify them, just like the Pharisees of old, by saying that their view is the only one that matters. There are also secular blog sites that continue their vendettas against those they don’t like or disagree with by going to such lengths that I wonder how they get away with it legally.
I have been the target of some of these sites, both “Christian” and “Secular,” and I usually just ignore their barbs as being part of the territory of my work as a journalist. I wonder what kind of lives these attackers lead and why they are so hateful in their words in what has become the “Wild Wild West of the Blogosphere.” Do they have any joy in their lives or do their personal attacks made them feel superior to those they go after?
I realize that not all blogging is negative, but I do wonder what non-Christians make of the so-called Christian blog sites that are often so vicious in their attacks against other believers. In Luke 6:31 (New Kings James Version), we read, “And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.” In John 13:34.35 (New Kings James Version), we read the words of Jesus, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” Finally, we read in 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 (New International Version), “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.”
So a word to those of you who blog and claim to be Christians. Please be careful that you don’t inject even more hate into this hateful world with blogs that bring the words of Jesus Christ into such disrepute. Let’s have more blogs that are “Love Central” instead of “Hate Central.”
This echoes precisely my own views about what has been happening all over the Internet—on a daily basis.
Despite the many warnings, pleas for more balance, and loving corrections that have been given to these online watchbloggers, today we have been presented with yet another tragic example of “Freedom of Speech” being used to attack/slander godly men and women via cyberspace wells of poison. This time the attack has come in the form of a terrifically inaccurate/destructive hit piece posted by Lighthouse Trails Research (LTR) against Calvary Chapel (and by implication, the widely respected father of that movement, Chuck Smith).
This is troubling, but not surprising. Lighthouse Trails Research founders, Dave and Deborah Dombrowski, have for years been attacking godly preachers, Christian authors, and even God-honoring organizations (e.g., Rick Warren, Ravi Zacharias, Biola University, and Moody Bible Institute, Calvary Chapel Pastor Bill Ritchie, and many others). Their wildly false accusations have confused countless Christians and needlessly divided brothers/sisters in Christ. The Dombrowskis, using their blog/website, even mounted an attack against one of the most biblically-sound evangelists serving the church: i.e., Greg Laurie (Harvest Christian Fellowship).
The Greg Laurie Attack
In reference to Laurie, Lighthouse Trails Research (LTR) declared that they hoped at some point other men of God would be able to help Laurie “remember the simple and true faith he found so many years ago.”
What prompted this unwarranted attack? Laurie had merely accepted an invitation to hold a one night outreach in the Madison Square Garden under the auspices of the New York City Leadership Center, which was helping to coordinate ministry outreaches for several national ministries including the 40-days of Purpose Campaign, led by Rick Warren. That’s all. But that was enough to motivate LTR to call into question Laurie’s spiritual health and doctrinal direction.
The damage done by such comments spread so swiftly through cyberspace, that Harvest Christian Fellowship was forced to release an official statement that in part stated: “Due to some erroneous information disseminated through Lighthouse Trails, I wish to clarify our ministry mission and strategy for New York City. . . . Harvest Ministries is supportive of all endeavors to strengthen the church and present the gospel and would affirm churches in seeking to participate in 40 Days of Purpose.”
A New Assault
Now, LTR has gone even further in their attacks against Calvary Chapel (CC)—i.e., its pastors, assorted churches, and even Chuck Smith. According to LTR, there is a war of sorts going on within the CC network of churches that is pitting godly/biblical/orthodox/traditional pastors against an ever-growing presence of unbiblical/liberal/Emergent/questionable pastors who are seeking to pull the CC movement in a pseudo-New-Agey, Emergent, Liberal direction. They make the following accusation:
This situation with Calvary Chapel is not isolated. Nearly every evangelical denomination and organization of any size in North America is going in this same direction to one degree or another. One key factor in why this is happening so rapidly is that Christian colleges, universities, and seminaries are heavily saturated with contemplative/emerging spirituality. Biola University, for instance, where many Calvary Chapel pastors have attended and graduated, is deeply involved in this “new spirituality.”
LTR goes so far as to them bring up the frightening specter of the OCCULT, implying that it is somehow connected to what is going on at Calvary Chapel: “Mysticism (i.e., the occult) is overtaking all segments of society, and this means that the world is falling under the spell of sorceries (magical arts) that according to the book of Revelation will deceive all nations (Revelation 18:23).”
This is all linked to nothing more than a single event—i.e., the release of Paul Smith, one of their close associates, from his position of leadership at Calvary Chapel. Paul Smith, not coincidentally, has been a champion for LTR within the CC network of church, often seeing eye to eye with them on a number of hot-button issues. Consequently, his release from CC leadership was interpreted as a serious compromise with truth and a sure sign that CC is now on the wrong doctrinal path. As they conclude: “With the termination of Paul Smith and the embracing of and teaming up with an emerging church, is this ‘authentic spirituality’ the direction that Calvary Chapel is going to go? The answer to that question is becoming clearer all the time.”
Standing for Truth!
This kind of hurtful and divisive attack against a thoroughly orthodox, biblical, Holy-Spirit-led, evangelistic-oriented, Bible-based network of churches is inexcusable and against everything discernment/apologetics should be. The Calvary Chapel system, under the leadership of Chuck Smith, has brought untold thousands to Christ and continues to give a simple Gospel call to those in need of Jesus. And their churches are led by some of today’s most Bible-centered teachers: Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Raul Ries, Bill Ritchie, Tom Stipe, Mark Martin…..and many, many others—some well-known; some obscure. Nevertheless, thanks to this newest post by LTR against Calvary Chapel, we have comments like the following beginning to appear at other blogs/websites: “This [the release of Paul Smith] is directly linked to the Emergent Church Movement’s Eastern Mysticism infiltrating that church denomination.”
But Calvary Chapel is about as far from liberal, Emergent, or Eastern Mysticism as any church system can be. They consistently lift up Christ, the scriptures, the cross, and the Gospel as the source of all truth for those who do not yet know Jesus as their personal Lord & Savior. I would urge all of my readers to write/email to LTR and offer them correction regarding this matter—lovingly, but firmly.
“Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness.”
Exodus 23:1
“A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will perish.”
Proverbs 19:9
“Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret, him will I put to silence …”
Psalms 101:5
“Remind the people to … slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.”
Titus 3: 1-2
“Therefore rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander of every kind.”
1 Peter 2:1
I stand with Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith, as well as with all CC pastors, as they face this newest threat not only their own churches, but the entire Body of Christ—i.e., the Cult of the ODMS.
Richard Abanes
PoP CulTuRE MiX
FOR MORE INFORMAtION ON LIGHTHOUSE TRAILS, SEE THE FOLLOWING ARTICLES:
Lighthouse Trails Research ATTACKS Greg Laurie
Lighthouse Trails: Walking in Darkness
(an introduction to Lighthouse Trails Research Project)
Lighthouse Trails: The Blanchard Bashers
(a look at the Ken Blanchard controversy)
Lighthouse Trails: A Futile Attempt At Reconciliation
(a look at Lighthouse Trails Dismissing Warren’s Email)
Lighthouse Trails: Rants and Ramblings
(a final look at the so-called “research” of LTRP)
m moodie said
I would not have beleived this myself had I not experienced it first hand. For the past year I’ve been hearing Chuck Smith and Don Stewart on K-Waves Pastors Perspective saying very concerning statements. More than once I have heard them say, “We have more in common with our Catholic brethren than those in the Emerging church.” That’s interesting being that they are both headed down the same path. Not to mention, why would emerging Rock Harbor be joining with them in events at mother church. This makes sense as Brian Broderson has said that Catholics are Christians that carry extra baggage. Extra baggage? Heresy, idolatry, homosexuality, and not to mention 605 years of persecution to true Christians where up to 50 million were killed in what is known as the Inquistion. Just a little baggage for which we see in Revalations 17 & 18 God’s wrath will be poured out. But why should that bother us? Brian Broaderson also said that “Erwin McManus was doctrinally sound.” I guess everyone is if you look at things his way. I’m so thankful for Lighthouse trails. In fact, I believe God has raised them up for a time such as this. While I felt safe in Calvary Chapel, I began to realize apart from God’s Word, there is no man that we should follow. Do your homework, research for yourself, the great apostacy means the great apostcy. God is waking up many of his people. Hold fast to the Truth of God’s Word.
kathisharpe said
Before you tackle the Catholics over the Inquisition, you’d best examine others within church history… and before you take them down over some homosexual or even pedophile priests, you’d best examine others within church history (and present). Oh yes, God’s wrath is coming – and I don’t think it will be nearly as pretty as many within the church paint it to be…
I can’t speak for CalChapel – have never been in one, only marginally know the people, but I wouldn’t hesitate to check it out if we were church hunting. :shrugs:
I *do* think we (the “orthodox” church) have more in common with the Catholics (in a desire for what is true and right) than the Emergents (who have a desire, it seems, to toss all that’s true and right).
richardabanes said
Here we go again………sigh………
Dear Friend,
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please….when it comes to Roman Catholicism, I would ask that you take a moment to simply consider the possibility that you MIGHT be taking a stand that is a bit too…..harsh with regard to the Roman Catholic Church.
Now, before you accuse me of heresy, or of being a Catholic-lover, or of wanting to lead everyone to Rome, or of…..whatever, let me just say that I certainly reject a whole cornucopia of Roman Catholic views. The church has had many problems doctrinally & historically, and it stands at odds with Protestantism on many important levels (and at odds with the Bible).
HOWEVER, this does not remove the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) from Christianity, nor does it place the RCC into the cult category (with Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses). I would suggest that you read some additional materials on Roman Catholicism from the Christian Research Institute.
I would also suggest you read Roman Catholicism and Evangelicals: Agreements & Differences.
The fact is that when it comes to SOME people within the emerging church, evangelicals DO INDEED have more in common with Roman Catholics. pastor Chuck is right about that. They are NOT both headed down the same road (I’m not sure where you are getting your information).
Broderson is also correct – Roman Catholics do have extra baggage.
You noted: “Heresy, idolatry, homosexuality, and not to mention 605 years of persecution to true Christians where up to 50 million were killed in what is known as the Inquistion.”
I would suggest that you look at Protestantism as well, where you can also find “heresy, idolatry, homosexuality” — and not to mention years of persecution to true Christians where many were killed through with hunts (yes, Protestants were zealous witch-hunters and killed many — just like Roman Catholics).
Lighthouse Trails, IMHO, misrepresents truth and divides the brethren needlessly.
R. Abanes
m moodie said
I was raised in a good Catholic family, went to Catholic school and never even owned a Bible. I’m so thankful that someone cared enough about our eternal salvation to offend us with the Truth. As a Catholic, we were saved through the Church. Please be honest with Catholics. Either we accept all of God’s Word or none of it. We do not add and we do not take away. The Catholic church has never changed her stance. As far as Christians also persecuting others, we know that a true Christian would never do that. I would recommend a u-tube video by Berean Beacon on the Inquisition and torture tools. I have studied history and it is inspiring to see the love these true Christians were filled with as they gave their lives because they knew this false system was Anti-Christ.
” If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed: And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32
kathisharpe said
I agree with you – a true Christian would not persecute others. Historically a great many church leaders have therefore by those criteria not been Christians. Currently the heresy hunters are doing a great job of it…
Ichabod said
When a non-Christian sees all the name calling, slander, rumor-spreading, etc. that Christians do to each other, why would he/she want to become one?
highlandpraise said
m moodie… Brother I understand where you are coming from. I grew up in the Presbyterian Church. I went to Sunday School and church camps, I was involved in my High School Youth Group and held the offices of Vice President and President. Of my youth group leaders, one was gay, one couple helped to write the “He / She” Bible, one had an affair with one of the youth, most of us were having sex on camp outs, and one of my youth group leaders and would plan meetings over a six pack and couple of cigars there at the church. I had two former high schoolers come to me and tell me they had become “Born Again” and proceeded to tell me the Truth of the Gospel. I threw them out and told them not to come back. (Sorry again Susan, Sorry Nancy).
Later my live-in girlfriend and I were serving at another Presbyterian church as youth group leaders. One of our Ministers was on his fourth marriage, another on his second, and they had no issue with us leading not only the youth but their children. My girlfriend served as an elder and was on the worship team.
Had it not been for us going to a concert at Calvary Chapel in Riverside (Now Harvest Christian Fellowship) we would not have come to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. We heard the Bible taught correctly and in context for the first time in our lives. I had not heard the Gospel properly taught, never given verse by verse from the Word. (I never listened to Susan and Nancy) My wife and were married by this time, but we still felt so much guilt for all of the years we were living in sin and teaching falsely, it took awhile to receive the forgiveness God so freely offered.
(JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR… THIS WAS MY EXPERIENCE IN THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH…. I BY NO MEANS MEAN TO STATE THAT ALL CHURCHES WERE, OR ARE, LIKE MINE WAS… I KNOW MANY RIGHT ON PRESBY MINISTERS AND FELLOWSHIPS)
I would also like to state that in my experience the pastors I have been under do not quote Chuck Smith very often or make hardly any reference to him. I hear more about Redpath, Tozer, Spurgeon, and Martin Lloyd Jones than Chuck. So to say that Calvary’s are cult-ish because they follow one man is taking things to a ridiculous extreme and it is very hurtful. Let me explain briefly.
I had a woman call me here in Scotland who had just come out of Mormonism. She wanted to find a church that taught the Word of God. She had been on my fellowships website and heard our pastor speak and she wanted some questions answered. I spent weeks answering her questions and helping her find her answers in the Bible.
One Day… it was all over because she got onto a website From AZ and they said that Calvary Chapel was a Cult. There were other links to other “watchdog” websites. She told me she had just come out of a cult and she wasn’t going to get caught up again. She thanked me for all of the time my wife and I had poured into her and that she was choosing to forget about Christianity altogether now because she did not know who she could trust.
Jesus gets gets the black eye when the body throws punches at it’s self over non-essentials and people with a grudge… Sorry to be so wordy in all of this but the body of Christ needs to get it together man instead dividing itself.
Its this kind of stuff that has helped to make the ground so hard here over the years. This is not new it’s just faster and more readily available.
kathisharpe said
Because Jesus is Lord, and Christianity is not a social club.
Pastor Ed said
Whenever I read some quick to draw out the Pharisee card I ususally find they are the very ones it should apply to. It seems to me the Pharisees were those who chose not to see the times they lived in, discern who the biblical Jesus Christ was as opposed to the preaching of another Jesus of whom Paul had not preached, and were unconcerned about the truth as revealed in God’s word. Lighthouse trails is not the problem! Chuck Smith and his cameleon like changing into the things he once stood against? This is a compromise not based on scripture but on the vain philosophy of men. Jesus warned of these days, Paul warned of these days, Peter and John etc.. Yet why do we not see these corporate presidents who falsely portray themselves as pastors warning the flock and teach them discernment? They say “all is well, just preach the gospel” then go on to teach another Jesus who tolerates sin in his church and you would think was ok with sin the way repentance is seldom preached. Their ranks are sacreligious, Even a calvary “pastor” here near Kernersville N.C. plays obnoxious electric guitar (Even with his teeth) and has a worship leader (his daughter) who lead worship the very next Sunday after quiting work from a “gentlemen’s club” (a place where men drink booze and watch live nude women dance!). Yes Lighthouse trails must be the problem not sin in the camp!
kathisharpe said
Why, Pastor Ed, you wouldn’t be disseminating ugly gossip in public, now would you?
I bet Jesus would play an electric guitar
Pastor Ed said
kathisharpe said “I agree with you – a true Christian would not persecute others. Historically a great many church leaders have therefore by those criteria not been Christians. Currently the heresy hunters are doing a great job of it…”
Reading new Versions kathisharpe? If that is gossip then Paul did a lot of gossiping didn’t he? What does the bible say of hereticks? hmmm? You are clearly biblically ignorant. You have no fear in correcting a Pastor warning of the evil he sees in a church. Do you have similar sin in your life that woul lead to do what all false believers do…attack the messenger…kill the prophets? Instead of being appalled at the sin you hate the fact that darkness is brought into light.
The bible speaks of folks like you over and over, warning you but you watch so much tbn and listen to your radio instead of being of a quiet and humble spirit, you are a loud mouthed boisterous woman even sacriligeously linking our holy Saviour with filthy rock and roll! Lord, Lord did we not…. Depart from me ye worker of iniquity into everlasting fire
Holiness is obviously not a part of your life, if you are in sin you are NOT in him. In Him is no sin! If you think you are saved and fornicating, drunkard, partying (revelling), are covetous, rebellious which is what Rock and is you are not saved.
If you think Jesus would play an electric guitar it is evidence you do not know him! He is holy not the long haired party guy in your vain imagination, that is another Jesus which Paul has not preached, not the Jesus of the A.V.
Gossip is telling idle tales. Idle chatter. Idle chatter would be “I bet Jesus would play an electric guitar”
idle tales mean they are to no benefit of others, letting people know of evil is hardly idle gossip! anymore than Paul was gossiping about Alexander the coppersmith, or his rebuke to Peter!
Learn from a bible, get out of fake cotten candy Christianity like Calvary and start winning souls by leading a life with a quiet and meek spirit. Even a fool when he is silent is counted as wise:-)
kathisharpe said
Ed, you made my day. What church do you pastor?
I *am* a loud mouth boisterous woman in blue jeans and barefoot who preaches, prays, prophesies, dances in church (with flags, to electric guitar music) falls on the floor sings in tongues leads people to Jesus prays for healing & deliverance and generally expects & sees miracles daily…. (Oh! And this all with permission & blessing of my pastors and the Lord – just like everyone else)
I don’t, however, attend (nor have I visited) a Calvary Chapel. I am not sure I’ve ever watched TBN (GodTV is more my style) nor do I listen to the radio (I download songs from folks like Rick Pino and sermons from people like Heidi Baker and the Arnotts).
Oh, and Ed – I SEE Jesus on a regular basis, too
Pastor Ed said
Thank you for proving my point.
Cat said
Oh, Sweet Geddy of Keswick. Pastor Ed, if this is what passes for evil in your world, you really do need to get out more.
You know what? I will bet my immortal soul that sniping self-righteous blowhards have caused a thousand THOUSAND times more human suffering than the electric guitar and the tambourine combined.
As far as I’m concerned, Kathi’s a bona fide Christian–and on the off chance that she isn’t, it’s not a thing that you or I get to decide. No, it’s the folks like me you have to worry about, and if you want real honest-to-goodness sacrilege, I would be only too delighted to show you some.
kathisharpe said
Ed, you didn’t answer my question. What church do you pastor?
kathisharpe said
Ed – Cat’s not kidding… sacrilege that would make your hair curl. And she’s a friend of mine.. oh my…
Pastor Ed said
I pastor a biblical church, you know KJV only, non incorporated non, the kind that is not yoked with the world. Something false Christians have no concept of. Not saying you are false, because I don’t know you but from what it seems like to me you two are contentious.
Pastor Ed said
As for Cat, that spirit is the spirit of anti-Christ not of Christ. Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Like Esau that fool bets her soul which she has already apparently a lien against from Satan. And for you to keep company with such a one shows either you don’t know the scripture or care to obey it. Ignorance can be fixed but willful rebellion against the truth from one who supposes themselves to be a Christian, the bible says they have no hope of salvation.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
Act 19:36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly.
Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tit 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Pastor Ed said
Cat said “You know what? I will bet my immortal soul that sniping self-righteous blowhards have caused a thousand THOUSAND times more human suffering than the electric guitar and the tambourine combined.”
This has to be referring to yourself otherwise you would be quite the hypocrite to exclude yourself while accusing others of doing what you are doing right here! It does not surprize me that you show the rottenness of the fruit of what this kind of movement brings. To you music is neutral, all that is needed in your world is your own taste. There is no such thing as God honoring music any type will do God is not picky! Satan being created with musical instruments in his being would never stoop so low as to use music to deceive, and even if he did you certainly know how to discern it. All that wasted study I have done, perhaps we should introduce R&R in our Church again? Or have you come dance and do some “honest to goodness sacrilege” that would exalt the name of Christ wouldn’t it?
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
SAC’RILEGE, n. [L. sacrilegium; sacer, sacred, and lego, to take or steal.]
The crime of violating or profaning sacred things; or the alienating to laymen or to common purposes what has been appropriated or consecrated to religious persons or uses.
Donna said
Glad I read this tonight…every once in awhile I need a reminder as to why I’m no longer a Christian.
I have never seen as much discord in the world as I see amongst the Christian people. They preach agape love, but there is no love in them. Nor do they have love for the ‘unsaved’ world. Either they’re running away and locking their doors on the ‘lost’, or they’re so tied up in their little Christian bubble that they no longer care for those on the other side of that bubble.
This is what the non-Christian sees. And there is no reason to want to be a part of it.
Jesus had passion for the lost. He didn’t turn his back on them. Nor was he so wrapped up in his Christian world that he couldn’t reach out to them.
And as far as all this judging of eachother that goes on in the church – doesn’t the bible say that a house divided against itself will fall? Maybe this is what the ‘great falling away’ is all about.
I don’t see love there anymore. And I can’t understand how a God of love can produce such a multitude of hypocrites that seem to have no love in them at all.
Kathi, these words aren’t spoken against you – you are one of the few, if not the only Christian I’ve known that truly walks in love. But I will say that when I see Christians going at it with each other, neither side show the light of the God that they’re fighting for.
kathisharpe said
ROFL Ed, you’ve already said that I’m false. Remember?
But seriously, sweetie. I live just outside of Greensboro, so you can’t be terribly far if you’re complaining about a church in K’ville. I want to know what church you pastor so that if I ever decide to get saved according to Matthew 23:15, I’ll know where to go on a Sunday morning to receive guidance.
kathisharpe said
BTW, do you think the KJV was the Bible Jesus read?
kathisharpe said
Um… Ed… Cat’s not a Christian.
And God’s not picky about music (I asked Him!). He is, however, picky about the heart. The heart is reflected in music – whether it’s acapella or with acoustic guitars or electric guitars and drums.
And…um… Ed… by the way… dancing’s in the Bible. So are tambourines and stringed instruments. I’ve got no doubt that King David would’ve been a rock star, had he had the electricity to plug into.
And…um… Ed… I’m 100% SURE that you do not have “truly” biblical music in your church, either
kathisharpe said
Hey Donna, here’s something for you to think about:
People should never be a reason one becomes a Christian. Oh, I know… you see, and you just gotta wonder (I do too!). If people were what I’d become a Christian for, I’d have dumped it a long time ago. As a religion, it’s drattedly inconvenient at times.
But this… this is the reason I became a Christian. This is the reason that even if the whole rest of the world were to turn on me, I would follow Him to the ends of the earth. Christianity is a drattedly inconvenient religion, but it’s the most awesome radical powerful empowering love I’ve ever encountered anywhere, and I wouldn’t trade Him for the whole world.
I think you’re probably at least partly right about “the great falling away” – I’ve written a few articles at iamhealed.net about the coming revival and the coming falling away. Jesus Himself says that many who call Him “Lord” aren’t going to heaven.
Donna said
Kathi, it’s not just a matter of whether Christians are the example that they should be, but rather the question, is God who the bible claims that he is? How can he be when the people that follow him don’t become anything that he says they should be. I simply don’t see truth coming from the gospel…at least not from those that lay down their lives for it. So how can this be truth? How can it be purifying?
But honestly I find more peace when I’m not dwelling on these things, so that’s all I’ll say.
kathisharpe said
People only change when they allow God to change them, rather than standing in pride and saying, “Well now, I’m all right.”
I know I’ve got a long way to go
It’s an ongoing problem, you know… if you read through the Epistles, particularly Paul’s letters and James, you’ll see that Christians have always had a problem with crucifying the “old man”.
But here’s something to remember, Donna… God created man with a free will. He’s not going to negate that or take that away when we get saved. While we’re still in our earth suits, we’ve got sin to contend with (but there’s coming a day, glory to God, when that’s all done away with…)
So even if all people who name the name of Christ were to follow Him in radical love, radical obedience, radical submission… we still won’t be perfect. But even Jesus said that not all who follow Him are fit for the Kingdom, by the choices they make.
kathisharpe said
BTW, Ed, one more question that arose out of my study of the Word this morning.
Earlier in this conversation, you made mention of your right to correct those in error, much as Paul did (you cited him as your example).
Are you an apostle?
Pastor Ed said
Kathi says…
Pastor Ed said
Kathisharpe said “But seriously, sweetie. I live just outside of Greensboro, so you can’t be terribly far if you’re complaining about a church in K’ville. I want to know what church you pastor so that if I ever decide to get saved according to Matthew 23:15, I’ll know where to go on a Sunday morning to receive guidance.”
You talk like a truck stop waitress (the kind on tv)! Who invited you to our Church? It is by invitation only, only true Christians allowed or the meek willing to hear the truth.
Pastor Ed said
BTW, Ed, one more question that arose out of my study of the Word this morning.
Earlier in this conversation, you made mention of your right to correct those in error, much as Paul did (you cited him as your example).
Are you an apostle?
2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
If you knew your bible like you pretend to you would not be an arrogant proud boisterous woman who the bible clearly rejects. God has nothing to do with proud people, boasters as yourself. This is why you are blind to the scriptures. This is also why I answer a fool according to their folly lest they be wise in their own conceit, and why a swine like you will get no more pearls.
Donna a bible study from Kathi is like getting one from the Pope, it may have some scriptures in it but when someone is in rebellion like herself yet thinking she has God’s favor it is hardly the person to go for any spiritual advice.
The bible is clear on what women should teach other women and only that if they themselves are quiet meek shamefaced and keepers at home submitting to their own husbands, if they have one. If they don’t…well that is another topic of discussion.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
shamefacedness and sobriety means they know how to control their tongue and respect elders, this is to women in particular. Learn in silence means you learn in silence. Profound isn’t it? It means you control your tongue, by closing your mouth. It means you give honor to those doing the work of the Lord. But you watch GodTV with such scholars and men of God as Todd Bentley, the adulterating wife abusing child molesting drunk. You blast me for exposing evil (like the bible commands) and are silent about the evil all around which makes you a partaker in it.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Kathi said “People only change when they allow God to change them, rather than standing in pride and saying, “Well now, I’m all right.”
I know I’ve got a long way to go”
Which may seem humble but is in fact a demonic and false humility. She could at anytime humble herself and be quiet pondering what has been said to see if the be any truth, but the proud and insolent say I have nothing to learn from you! Even though they have not a clue of what I believe, it is a mystery to them because they do not know or obey the bible. They pride themselves on bible knowledge but practice none of it. They think they are in the right to attack a pastor warning the flock of the danger of following those who do not obey the bible. They are ignorant of such verses as:
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
And that the apostle Paul commanded us to follow him as he followed Christ. That is in obedience not lip service.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Yet your “friend” is unsaved and sacreligous. You side with your unsaved worldly friend boasting of her ability to “sacrilege”
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
You are a friend of the world, the best kind… a tare which sucks the life out of a true church but thrives by itself and with other tares, but is good for nothing.
So your self invitation to our church even though we have people come from farther than Greensboro to ge here is denied. No tares welcome.
The women at our church are meek and humble, they are quiet and soul winners. they seek to honor God and honor those who do his work. They are obedient and full of joy, hardworking, dedicated to uplifting Jesus Christ to the world, they can discern false teachers, they no their rolls and thankful to be a part of a body that actually obeys the bible and loves one another, bearing one another’s burdens. So no thank you we don’t need the dead weight.
kathisharpe said
It’s all right, Ed.
I didn’t believe you were really a pastor anyway.
And all that because I challenged you? Hoooboy.
kathisharpe said
Oh I just had one last thought (I promise, last one for a while)
I guess we’ll see when the tribulation comes and Jesus returns, won’t we?
kathisharpe said
Did I say one last thought? HAHAHAHAH
I’m so glad that I know my role as a daughter of God and a friend of Jesus…
Pastor Ed said
According to you but not according to God’s word.
Cat said
Pastor Ed, I’m surprised at you. I come right up to you and self-identify, and you keep going after Kathi. (And if you don’t think she ought to be associating with filthy demonic rock ‘n’ rollers like myself, what version of the Bible are you reading? Does Jesus hang out at, like, the country club? Does he go and sit in a Lutheran pew somewhere–if he can rise from the dead, surely he can manage the odd anachronism–wincing occasionally at the sight of the cross but being all meek and mild and doing what he’s told? )
You call her a friend of the world, but my main mission in life is to be the best friend the world ever had. If I’d come upon Jesus on the cross, I wouldn’t even have let him die for your sins; I’d have kicked some Roman butt and gotten him some first aid, or died trying.
You’re right on one count–I have no “hope” of salvation. In fact, if there is a clerical error and I somehow wind up in heaven, I will put thumbtacks in clouds, hide dead fish in harp cases, and generally make life miserable for everyone there until I’m transferred down to where I belong. I’m actually looking forward to the lake of fire, and I will accept no substitutes.
‘Cause I’m not just unsaved; I’m DE-saved. I used to be all meek and mild and shamefaced, and you never would have caught me dead in anything but a skirt. I converted to Paganism in 1995. (And Kathi’s been lovingly trying to win me back since 2003. You’re not; you’re calling me a fool. Which other than being a vast underestimation of both my intelligence and the depths of my depravity is totally fine, but I’m just sayin’…) Now I wear jeans, play the electric bass very badly, attend university, and spoil my dinner with cookies. The sacred and the profane are my playthings: I am holy and evil and beautiful and terrible and sublime and ridiculous and alpha and omega. I have everything you aspire to, and everything you’re afraid of, and I will walk straight-backed into the lake of fire, heart brimming with a joy bigger than Satan or God, a joy the size and depth of the entire universe.
kathisharpe said
Pastor Ed, I feel that I must repent to you, to God, and to the readers here for allowing this to go on. I was following the “rope: hang” principle, but last night at the revival cell group I attended, the Lord reminded me of the “get: busy” principle.
By allowing you to behave like this in public “on my territory”, so to speak, and by engaging you in that endeavor to spread malice around the web, I’ve wasted the time God’s given me to share Jesus and bring revival to the world.
So, no more. I’m closing comments on this thread. I pray that you will be filled with the love of Jesus and the power of the Holy Ghost, Ed.
Aside to Cat: “saved” and “desaved” has nothing to do with being meek, mild, shamefaced and skirted (if that’s what Christianity is, do you think I’d be in it? HA). I think you’ve classified a bunch of stuff as “Christian” that ain’t – it’s dead religion of the sort Jesus came to destroy.
Comments closed, tho Cat if you want to discuss what I just said, just comment over at my personal blog.